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Post by NeoEllis on Mar 2, 2003 14:42:27 GMT -5
Aries, Socialism isn't a matter of "Oh, wouldn't it be nice....". Capitalism will not last forever and it's going to be Socialism or Fascism that takes its place.
I think the choice is obvious.
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Post by CygnusMkII on Mar 2, 2003 14:44:30 GMT -5
*Attempting to stay calm* Cyg..... You like it there in those other countries so much.... Get the fuck out of here and move there. Do you really think I can? My parents are scientists, okay? They don't get paid enough in a country where idiot football players get millions a year. I wish I could move to Canada, but I'm stuck here. First of all, Marx was born in the 1840s, and the US was a country in 1776. Second of all, U.S.S.R.- United Soviet Socialist Republic. ~or~ The Democratic Republic of the Congo. Hey, what about Chile before Pinochet? It was a republic, and a socialism. You need to freshen up on some of your... well all of history. Yes, "profetional" basketball players, who work three months a year, should make millions, where a man with three jobs, five children, in a trailor should be below the poverty line. It sounds wonderfuly fair. Dude, do you have any idea what your talking about? The people as a whole will own the land. Honestly, I'd rather have everybody be poor, then have 1% of the population own 60% of the wealth while the remaining 99% get stuck with 40% of the wealth that, they created! Without labourers, there is no wealth! Why do the factory owners have all of el dinero, where the labourers have de nada? It's certainly how I want to live mine. No private property equals no capitalist greed. Funny how people who work with life threatening machinary only get minimum wage. Whereas soldiers get huge pensions if they can survive killing people. Well, think about this, how big is his family? Where does he live? How many hours does he work? No, there is no ownership! That what makes communism wonderful! The elimination of greed! No bosses, yo. See the workers can fire their "boss" if he's not doing them justice, and treating them well. If people work overtime then they would get paid more, but wages would be much higher to begin with. First of all, you keep assuming that a socialist country would be like the US. Not every countrysucks as much as we do. Education would be much better. To use the Soviet Union as an example, look at it this way: They were the first on the moon, maning they had a very good science enitiative. They had some of the greatist musitions of all time. Rubenstein, Rachmanninof, Rimsky-Korsikov, Swaitowski, Fritz Reiner, and even Van Cliburn studied in the Soviet Union. Ice skating: Every single pairs competition was won by the Soviet Union in the Olympics sence 1920. All labourers in general were paid way above the US standard minimum wage. Too bad that facist Stalin had to take control, Trotsky, a true socialist, was next in line, but Stalin had him killed. I'm sure you've heard that rumor that Stalin killed Lenin, also.
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Post by NeoEllis on Mar 2, 2003 14:51:44 GMT -5
In my book, Stalin was an Anti-Socialist.
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Post by Angel Aries on Mar 2, 2003 14:53:16 GMT -5
Y'all do realize that nobody is listening to y'all at this point. When you preach it over and over again, nobody wants to listen. Aries knows he doesn't want to hear it anymore.
And that's one of the good sides about capitalism. We can change the freakin' channel here if it annoys us.
Ellie, Cyg, all this conjecture is futile right now, since we're not convincing anyone, and it's unlikely either of us ever will. So what's the point?
You're not going to make any converts here. So, please, please, please, please, please, please, PLEASE, can we just put the issue to rest?
When your great Liberal uprising happens, and Aries and all the defeated defenders of American capitalism are all strewn behind you and your banner, felled by the great righteousness of your...pacifism...then others can rethink their positions on things.
But for the moment, shut up.
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Post by NeoEllis on Mar 2, 2003 14:57:07 GMT -5
If I do that, then everything has been in vain. I will never drop the issue. As long as you keep coming back to this thread to rebuttal, I will have another argument to great you.
As long as I'm alive, socialism is not dead.
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Post by Angel Aries on Mar 2, 2003 15:16:15 GMT -5
Annoy Aries enough, that can be rectified.
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Post by NeoEllis on Mar 2, 2003 15:20:28 GMT -5
Aries, I think you're talking all this a bit to seriously.
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Post by Angel Aries on Mar 2, 2003 15:23:15 GMT -5
Actually, Aries has good reason to.
But as for backing up the whole threat business...
*points over at the Town Hall Mod business.*
What did you think Aries meant?
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Post by CygnusMkII on Mar 2, 2003 15:49:20 GMT -5
Aries, this does happen to be the "capitalism vs. Socialism" thread. This was created for the pure debate of the subject, and that's what's happening, so I see no problem.
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Post by Exile on Mar 2, 2003 15:58:44 GMT -5
Funny about that remark a guy with 5 kids 3 jobs and lives in a trailor.... Why does he have 5 kids? He is irresponsible, perhaps that means that he doesn't belive in birth control, thats ok, but that belief comes with reponsiblity. Meaning, he shouldn't have sex if he knows he will be cranking out another kid he can't afford. 3 jobs, if he does it, I applaud him because that is not an easy task. But it is his fault for his financial trouble. Kids are expensive, and he has 5. Now, if he somehow had 5 kids at once (Sorta like twins, exept more, I don't know what it's called) that is the only excuse.
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Post by Angel Aries on Mar 2, 2003 16:15:09 GMT -5
And now, a word from the General:
It has been said that the true test of sanity is the ability to entertain two, diametrically opposed propositions at the same time. I have been privy to the constellations of thought, relative to Capitalism, Socialism, Fascism, and Communism. Each, in their own right merit consideration, again relative to the allocation of labor and distribution of wealth. The vehicle for such presents the differrentiation of a just society. There are an myriad of examples of failed methods of distribution of collective wealth; all of which are comprise of a government deciding the "trickle down benefits" to those who made it all possible. The point of departure for a more mature society is to recognize the sanctity of individual human thought; to embrace its diversity; to provide forums of expression emblematic of each facet of diversity; to provide an equal field of play to succeed.
Democracy is the watchdog of capitalism. The inflamed rhetoric of "robber barons" raping the distribution of wealth reduces itself to simplistic rhetoric when an individual has the communication and means to correct the perceived imbalance. Such a mechanism does not exist in a Communistic, Socialistic, or Fascist mode.
I have fought, as an entire lineage of my ancestors, for the right to defend what is important to my family. The right to plant a crop; to attend the church of my choice; to select my course of vocation and education based on my needs, my family's need; to express my thoughts, however disconcerting to the government, when and where I choose. Many of my ancestors came here as slaves; many never left the holds of the goal ships in the harbor of their native land. Their name was Dubh Sinthe, translated as black man of peace. Avowed to never allow such tyranny to expand, my ancestors committed their wealth and being to an ideal which helped form this nation.
It is so tragic that I have had to take the life of another human so motivated that he would defend a totally polar form of government. In the grand scheme of political rhetoric, it would appear to be nothing; yet the horrid events serve as an undying, daily, crystalline reminder that democracy will forever endure in my heart and my progeny. While capitalism has its warts, I find the rabid endeavors of destructionist akin to my kitten chasing its tail.
And now, a word from the Lieutenant:
*waves his copy of the Communist Manifesto.*
Yeah, aren't YOU going to be in trouble when Aries finishes reading this?
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Post by Zorak on Mar 2, 2003 16:25:10 GMT -5
Ellie. It doesn't work. It's not gonna work here, because nobody is in much of a mood to try it out. SO WILL YOU PLEASE SHUT UP ABOUT IT BEFORE ARIES GOES OUT OF HIS MIND?!!!! Jeez!!! Aries can only deal with SO MUCH dogma before he goes bonkies, ferchristssake!!! Switch Aries with Zorak thats exactly what I feel.
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Post by CygnusMkII on Mar 2, 2003 17:06:46 GMT -5
Democracy is the watchdog of capitalism. The inflamed rhetoric of "robber barons" raping the distribution of wealth reduces itself to simplistic rhetoric when an individual has the communication and means to correct the perceived imbalance. Such a mechanism does not exist in a Communistic, Socialistic, or Fascist mode. Democracy can also be the watchdog of socialism. I.e. Sweden, France, Chile, Denmark, Germany. Well, Germany under Hitler was a Fascist-Capitalism. Also you cannot group Communism and Socialism with Facism. Communism and Socialism are economic mediums and Democracy is a social medium. Not to mention Democracy isn't the watchdog of the US because we're a republic. With all due respect Mr. McAfee, you fought in Vietnam, ne? You weren't fighting for your rights, you were fighting for capitalist interests. Well, why do you think that was so? Capitalism pure and simple. Perhaps in it's oldest form before Adam smith and all. It has expanded. This country is not only capitalist, but impirialist. from the Philipines to Chile to Kuwait. It is. You're the same as the people who's lives you've taken. Are you sure that's democracy you're talking about? That's... sad. Yeah, well, won't you be in trouble when I get my dad on, who's a professer of economis, who's read all three volumes of Capital, the Communist Manifesto, Adam Smith's Capital, counteless essays by Lenin, and much much more! Not to mention my mom has read all of those things too. Chawah!
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Post by Angel Aries on Mar 2, 2003 18:03:34 GMT -5
Lt: Cyg, I think we can be slightly mature enough to leave most of the arguing between ourselves and not try to involve as many educated persons as we can at one time. This IS between us, isn't it? Aries asked his father to help him out with this simply because he has a better perspective on things that can influence Aries's points, not to totally sink your arguments in and of themselves. No, no, no, that's Aries's job.
Gen: I regret that you did not distiguish the essence of my presentation: form and substance.
Additionally, to equate my experience in the Republic of Viet Nam to a simplistic, mindless exercise to promote the benefit of Capitalist adventures would prove a remote, armchair analysis of the truth.
Let me provide a plank for the support of your accusation. From 1969 and 1970, Da Nang harbor was rregularly shelled by NVA, 122 rockets; all of which directed to naval, harbor targets. However, at the mouth of Elephant Valley, northwest of Da Nang was a Shell oil oil storage facility. Guarded only by an eight foot cyclone fence and lights, it was sufficient to prevent any attack. I, 19, found it so curious. Fast forward to 1972. While awaiting my White House access clearance, I was assigned the duty of locking all the top secret documents into the safe at the War College. One day, I thumbed through some material and was astonished to read that Shell Oil paid the NVA not to hit that facility. Necessity would seem to have currency on both sides of the coin.
I, as a Marine, did not serve the interests of your accusation, no more than the 26 year old, Chinese with a degree in Korean, Chinese, and Korean from the University of Beijing did with government who sent him to his death.
Do not venture into the realm of a centurion with simplistic accusations.
A more productive endeavor would be to ascertain who your, Councilman, County Commisioner State Rep, State Sen., Congressman, State Senators are. Don't know? And so you would aqiesce power to people you do not know while dancing on your perogative to embrace a failed philosophy.
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Triyun
GM III
Correct me if I'm wrong but are you asking for a Challenge!!!!!!!!
Posts: 739
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Post by Triyun on Mar 2, 2003 18:58:16 GMT -5
Well, Germany under Hitler was a Fascist-Capitalism. Yeah its interesting that the Nazi party was short for National SOCIALIST party.
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