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Post by NeoEllis on Jan 28, 2003 15:30:44 GMT -5
I really don't want to tear up the "democratic" thread so I think I'll just start a general thread on it.
To start out, think of it this way. A government is put in place for the benifit of the people, so why not go all the way and chose socialism to get the most benifit possible?
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Post by MegaRaptor on Jan 28, 2003 15:36:28 GMT -5
In theory, such an idea would work, but there are many problems.
First off, the entire concept of Socialism depends on human beings as inherantly good creatures. Time and time again, that belief has been proven as little more than wishful thinking.
Secondly, in a true socialist society, there are no classes, and therefore no reason to try and advance yourself. The fact that classes existed in both the Soviet Union and modern day China proves that they are not practicing true socialism.
I'd post more, but at the moment I'm a bit brain-dead, hungry and waiting for a bus to show up.
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Triyun
GM III
Correct me if I'm wrong but are you asking for a Challenge!!!!!!!!
Posts: 739
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Post by Triyun on Jan 28, 2003 15:47:24 GMT -5
I agree with the statements above, also Socialism discourages competition, why would a man work hard to go through med school or law school if his money is evened out with a guy who is a Janitor. Also those who distribute the wealth become corrupt, leading to an elite government class. It is true that the better part of society and the government should take care of the lower part of society, but at the same time, we need to have rewards for those who distinguish themselves among the rest.
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Post by NeoEllis on Jan 28, 2003 15:56:32 GMT -5
Good argument MR, but you need to get your facts strait. What you are refering to is communsim a for of socialsim.
I think that I can get my point across better with this little flow chart:
Feudalism(or somthing similer)->Capitaism->Socialism->Communism
-or-
Feudalism(or somthing similer)->Capitaism->Facism
Feudalism, at least for parctical purposes in this dicussion, is the time of Kings, Queens and such. For the most part, things sucked, and unless you where off the noble of religious caste, things sucked in a big way. Then capitalism came along, and things started to get better, average people could now go out and make a better life for themselves. People began moving from the country to the cities and working in factories, this is commonly called the 1st European Indusrtial Revolution.
But things still sucked. Men, women and children were now working 12 hour days, 12 hours for barley enough money to surive and there was no health care or job security to think of.
That's when the idea of socialism came into place. A government, not of monarchs, using the idea of religion to justify their rule, but a government of the people, making and enforcing laws on the buissness man that says, "you must pay your works x amount of money a day, give them y amount of days of" and such.
I'm tired right now so I'll talk about later forms of socialsim, it's evolution into communism and the dark alternative, facism later.
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Post by Angel Aries on Jan 30, 2003 0:53:47 GMT -5
It sounds nice. It really does. Aries really thinks that a whole lot of people would be better off with that.
But what you're talking about is perfect, total equality.
*sighs.* Excuse Aries for sounding superior, but Aries believes that he is a good deal smarter, more articulate, and, forgive Aries for the use of the word, better than a vast majority of the cesspool of humanity. Aries imagines there are a lot of people who feel the same way.
Not only would socialism elevate the lowest of the low to become one with people, it would also discourage people like Aries, people with half a brain, from really making an impact in this world. There has to be a drive in there, and excuse Aries, but Aries is mercenary. Aries does not impact worlds for free.
Aries also feels that he's talking more about communism, but Aries might hit that damned socialism mark somewhere in there...
What you're talking about is creating a barely better society, where you would take everyone and ground them on the same level. Where a black man whose family has, since before they knew, worked hard to make their children great men would stand shoulder-to-shoulder with freaking irrevocable trailer trash.
Aries knows. Aries has seen. In fact, Aries has even done that with his brother. His family is scum. Aries, if he had his way, would never have interacted with them even to ask them the time. But he is Aries's brother, and Aries is, instead of putting himself on their level, raising his brother to his.
Ellis, this country, this world, might do real good under socialism.
Then again, Aries also figures that this world would do real good if military service in excess of five years and one year of front-line infantry duty were mandatory for every man and woman in order for them to attain citizenship. That those who know what it is to fight are the ones who make the rules. That the world would be run by generals with half a clue rather than political stooges with idealism, money, charisma, 'a dream' and an empty promise.
Now, tell Aries, who's being more reasonable, and which of us is going to get our wish first?
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Post by MegaRaptor on Jan 30, 2003 13:41:23 GMT -5
A bit off topic, but the system you just described, Aries, reminds me of Starship Troopers (the book, not the merely okay movie).
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Post by NeoEllis on Jan 30, 2003 17:29:59 GMT -5
Aries, the kind of government you discribed is called a military dictatorship. Capitalism of Socialsim, those things awalys end up being, by far the most rappantly corrupt forms of rule there are.
Anyway, I know that total equality is probably never going to happen. But what do you expect me to do? Say "The hell with it, I'll only worry about myself.", I can't do that. I am like you, I don't like to talk about it really, but with and IQ of 135, I'm more intelligent than most adults. Realizing that my life sucks and it probably always will, I've made it my reason for existence to try and make this world a better place. As much of a vile virus as it is, I am capable of forgiving humanity.
I've heard the "I work so hard for my keep, why should some lazy bum get just as much as I do?" and I agree with that, but I lock at it from another angle.
Consider this, why should the average worker spend 8 hours a day working their asses off just to make ends meet make less in their whole life time than their employer makes in a day. They are the ones making the economy go round, they are the business. In a socialism, the corporate profit would be spread out much more evenly among the workers. This naturally has more benefit for the economy considering that the more buying power the average person has, the more they will spend.
Europe is on the verge of socialism and do you think the people there are complaining about it? Hell no!
People get to hung up on the theoretical problems of socialism before realizing the practical benefits.
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Post by Angel Aries on Jan 31, 2003 0:34:56 GMT -5
Ellie, as for the military dictatorship deal, you still vote for your leaders.
And, after all, quoth Anakin Skywalker: "Well...if it works..."
Quoth the Thinking Recon Marine's Guide To Combat Rule No. 9 as a supplement: "If it sounds stupid and it works, it isn't stupid."
Aries believes that the politics is too big a deal to be left to politicians anymore. You'll notice how efficiently things happen in a military unit. A general issues an order, and the only lag time is the time it takes for a communique to get from HQ to the lines. And even better, the soldiers follow orders, none of this pussyfooting bureacratic bullshit, none of this whiny, pathetic, moaning and groaning protesting in the streets. You find fault with it, you say, 'Sir, with all due respect, fuck you, sir!' and you make damn sure you tag both 'sir's on there. And then a qualified officer appointed by the general makes the decision in the field that everyone can deal with and execute. Suddenly all this time and red tape is eliminated in a military unit. Suddenly things get done. If things go wrong, the general issues another order. Concept!!
There's no guarantee that socialism'll even work on a scale as big as America without testing it, and there's literally no way to test it, Ellie. Yes, things can go up when you're in the middle, but things also go down. And in the end, where is it you want to go?
Okay, Aries is going to be reasonable. Say that as of this moment, America turns socialist and Ellie is elected Prime Minister. Okay, that's all well and good, isn't it? But now what? What do we do? Where do we go? Where's our focus going to be?
Ellie, in order to get people to look at the good sides of socialism and thusly win them, you need to answer the questions they ask, listen to the fears that your opponants voice, and then tell them precisely and exactly what you've got planned. You're thinking like a civilian. You want something to happen, but you don't got the balls to actually go out there and do it. You just sit there and wish on whatever magic stars in the sky that you'll wake up tomorrow morning and the world would say you were right.
Wrongo.
You want something to happen, you play to win. Your job in that is to win intellectuals, then the common folk will lock step when they see things are already out of their controls. Believe it or don't, we smart people can actually rule this damned mudball if the need presents itself and the will is there. To win intellectuals, you've got to be...well, excuse Aries, but IQ point for IQ point, you don't sound very intelligent, not very articulate at all. Your arguement could make sense if you wielded it with a little more finesse.
Aries imagines that Chobot, Drakoules, Niedrielkowski and Plough were articulate indeed. They got their points across.
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Post by NeoEllis on Jan 31, 2003 9:51:44 GMT -5
The perfect analogy Aries, for as we all know, Anakin became Darth Vader.
Now, we would all like a world where everything flowed smoothly, I know I would but at what cost?
Communism seeks to eliminate wars, your model would be built for constant war. So it's obvious we have different ends. Just listens to yourself, what you described was Nazi Germany.
Rigged discipline, intolerance of descent, extreme nationalism (you didn't mention that, but that's inherently a military thing). Those are all characteristics of fascism, I know you Aries, you're moderate yes, but you're not that right-winged.
What makes you think a militant government wouldn’t be corrupt? With so much power in their hands, it would be nothing short of a miracle for that government to last without abusing it’s population. A state like that would be just begging to be overthrown.
Socialism is hard to achive, but it’s not impossible. A military dictatorship is just plain wrong. It would leave power in the hands of the most conservative of people, what if you don’t believe in killing? Are you wrong because you don’t want your hands stained with blood?
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Post by Angel Aries on Jan 31, 2003 18:07:09 GMT -5
No, you're just a philosphical hypocrite at that rate.
And in any case, when did Aries say 'intolerance of descent'? If Aries remembers his politically-correct military now, you're not white, black, or anything. You're a soldier when you're in the military.
But the discipline, the nationalism...why not? Aries goes through day after day of high school and can't help but feel embarassed by the absolutely idiotic behavior of Aries's fellows! This county could afford some discipline, not so far as the 1950's might put things, but just SOME degree of cultural discipline!
You can't listen to the left wing of things, you can't listen to the right. It's that damned balance thing again, and sometimes the scales need to be evened after the fact. Americans are forgetting the true meaning of the word 'liberty'. Have been for the past three hundred years. And now, suddenly, we're a superpower, and, of course, we act like one.
The international community is right. We are the fat cats who can't help but stick our fingers in every bloody thing. And now that we're slowly corrupting, perhaps we need a reason to return to the more virtuous sides of things. We as Americans are unbalanced. Americans are used to so much control that everyone's tweaking the controls at the same time, and it's about time that we wind up with no control.
Besides, what government is ever truly permanent?
*sighs.* This is why Aries doesn't want power. It's not worth it. There is no truth between men except fighting. And while Aries has been trained to be a patient person, Aries doesn't have the patience to try to sway other men to his line of thinking through the meager eloquence that Aries has.
All Aries wants is a simple life, a home, a family, a job Aries can truly enjoy for himself, and the rest of his life. The rest just isn't worth it.
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Post by CygnusMkII on Feb 1, 2003 15:05:41 GMT -5
And in any case, when did Aries say 'intolerance of descent'? If Aries remembers his politically-correct military now, you're not white, black, or anything. You're a soldier when you're in the military. Oh, Aries, you know that there is tons of racism in the military. Particularly the marines. Well, perhaps if education were better we would have a bit more cultural discipline. A military state would be more concerned with changing people into mindless card-board-cut-out soldiers. Yes, you can and should take sides. Nothing will get done if everything is in the middle, nothing will move forward at least. "Slowly corrupting"? We've been corrupt sence we began, Aries. So we should all join the military and become exactly the same? Well, that's completely giving up hope. What about the rest of the world? Your desires are completely relivant, but what happens when you attain them? Are you going to say, "Skrew you world, I have what I want." Aries, seeing that you're not a complete idiot, you could, at the very least, try to make a difference.
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Post by Angel Aries on Feb 1, 2003 15:39:02 GMT -5
Cyg, you're making relevant points, but nearly everyone here is defying Satre's Principal of True Sanity: The ability to hold two diametrically opposed notions in one's brain at the same time.
Sometimes the liberal stance on things aren't always the right ways. You have to remember, so many people voicing so many different concerns produce a good deal of irrelevancies. And people become angered when all those irrelevancies are not fulfilled.
You can't please everyone all the time. In fact, there are so many that demand to be pleased that Aries doesn't care to bother any longer. What's the point? Aries's purpose in life is not to sit here and blow sunshine up peoples's asses. Aries is an artist sometimes, a soldier nearly all the time. Aries does not create simply for the pleasure of others. There are too many tastes to please, and Aries will not overextend himself for someone whose favor he can fall out of favor with just as quickly as he falls into it.
Screw the world. Just screw it. Aries doesn't have the time or energy for idealism.
Nor does Aries really care to make the world a better place through creation just now. It's not worth it.
Aries will never be able to make everyone happy all the time. So Aries can at least make sure himself and his line are happy, and Aries can do that best in simplicity.
Aries doesn't need to change the world. It's not even worth saving most of the time.
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Post by CygnusMkII on Feb 1, 2003 17:23:47 GMT -5
Sometimes the liberal stance on things aren't always the right ways. Aries-san, this is the capitalism vs. socialism thread. I'm saying that the Liberal way is the right way, and that's the argument at hand. Well, congradulations Aries-san, you're acting like every single average American. But how will things change at all for the better if you take that kind of stance? Nope. Making severly empovrished people's lives better just isn't worth it.
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Post by Angel Aries on Feb 1, 2003 21:52:03 GMT -5
Cyg, do Aries a favor.
Look at the history of humanity. And please. Please tell Aries where there has been one single successful socialist regime.
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Post by NeoEllis on Feb 2, 2003 7:21:58 GMT -5
The Congo and Chile were both successful until we: in the case of the Congo, assassinated their leader or in the case of Chile, supported a fascist military coup which got more than 2,000 innocent people killed. In Chile the socialists were democratically elected.
In other words, the US does every thing in its power to protect it's investments, that is why the US hates socialism, that is why there is war.
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